Organic gardener seeking advice and exchange of info & ideas with same

Hello GardenStew friends...do we have some organic gardeners in our Stew? I have been challenged over the years to come up with solutions to various situations that present themselves to me and my garden. I would really like your input regarding my latest conundrum. Here is a photo of it...


These are leaves on a vine approx. 3 years old, 10' (3 m) tall in my zone 11 garden in Colima, Mexico. I've been told that the white stuff following the leaf veins is some kind of soft-bodied or hard-bodied sap-sucker. The leaf on the left is how a healthy leaf should look like (very solidly green), although now it is showing signs of becoming infected as well. The white does not appear on the undersides of the leaves, but i did find some tiny black things that could be the perpetrators. I wiped one of the leaves with a wet soapy cotton cloth and observed a yellowish stain, but the leaf did not become clean. I was advised to spray insecticidal soap (not organic) all over the vine and at the base. No way i am going to do that. This vine is a host plant for butterflies and i sure don't want any dead caterpillars. So this is what i did. I cut the vine back to the ground (well back to about 5 " [13cm] from the ground) and disposed of all the infected plant material). I cleared the soil and mulch from around the base of the plant and cleaned what remains of the vine with soapy water and an old toothbrush. I will also clean the trellis the vine grows on. I cleaned the tool and gloves that i used to cut the vine. I think i need to dig up the vine and divide the roots, but so far haven't had the courage . It took me 3 years to obtain viable seeds for this vine. It is not available at nurseries in Mexico. It would be difficult to replace. I didn't want to take a cutting from the infected vine, but i did find some seeds i had saved from 2014 and am working on germinating them. Already this beloved vine is sending out new growth.

What would you have suggested that i do? What would be your idea regarding this situation? Do you know more specifically what this pest is? I'd love to hear from some organic gardeners. Ooops! the subject line should read "Advice" rather than "Advise", but i guess we can't edit subject lines, oh well...

 

Thank you toni...it is reassuring to know there are people who garden organically here. The vine is Dalechampia dioscoreifolia (Bow Tie Vine, Costa Rican Butterfly vine) it is in the Euphorbiaceae Family and it is in our database

The photo of you in your avatar reminds me of someone but i just can't think of who. One of these days it will come to me.

I don't want to bother Frank with this small item...already i've been giving him lots of trouble adding things to the DB. If it were something obscene, i would ask him. Right now i'm giving him a rest because he deserves it...still there are many other members who are probably not.

 

Hi! I don't use any packages of 'cides or chemicals either. The pattern of damage looks like stippling, usually caused by spider mites.

Assuming your plant is outside? (Doubtful any plants need to come inside in Mexico to escape winter - LOL!) If so, I wouldn't worry about it. Outdoor plants have minor skirmishes with all kinds of critters, but rarely are they fatal. Just part of nature. If there's a few pests around, then a few predators of those pests should also come around, looking for a tasty meal. Unless a plant looks like it will be killed unless I intervene, I don't. I can't think of any examples when I did try to intervene, with the exception of some kinds of veggie plants - because those are a "this season or never" kind of thing, without a future anyway.

 

Hi toni...i don't think i'd recognize you without snow on your head. I figured/hoped Frank was not bearing the entire weight, so it is good to hear that it is a team effort.

Good to hear from you purple. It looks like you have also been busy contributing to the DB...you meet the nicest people there. Thank you for all the "likes" ...I guess your thumb must be exhausted

Yes, the vine is outside, in the ground and has been so healthy for the last 3+ years. Perhaps the attack is due to its needing to have its roots divided which i will do. Yes, i understand about the bugs. The Aristolochia used to get aphids practically on every leaf and i would ignore that because i knew that the lady beetles would show up and the lady beetle larva would show up and they would take care of things. I don't worry about a few leaves being eaten or disfigured (i have a butterfly garden after all) and some of my happiest moments are when i see small holes and tiny frass scattered around a host plant.

But, these sap suckers had ruined 10 feet of leaves so i was concerned that i was going to loose the plant as well as have the little suckers move over to the adjacent vine because the vines do intertwine especially at the top. I had to give up growing Passiflora because every 2 years it would just up and die...could be a drainage problem or nematodes, i don't know. But when you have a host plant full of mid-sized caterpillars drop dead, it is catastrophic. Luckily i have a neighbor with a rancho at the edge of town and he has all the host plants there that he needs and i can give him a box of caterpillars to take out to a good food source.

Okay, so given that i thought the vine was in critical danger and the vine next to it might become infected as well, what would you have done? Do you have some kind of sap-sucker or spider mite potion? I have tried soapy water for white flies and mealies, but neither of those things are the problem and i don't know what it the cause is so don't know what to do about it other than what i have done and will do described in the original post. Whatever these things came from they are imbedded in the leaves so i would need to treat the cause of the suckers rather than the suckers themselves. I did take a good look at the vine as i was pruning it down and it was remarkably free of bugs with the exception of two little things which i should have examined under the microscope. I suppose i could scatter ground cinammon around the base of the plant, and keep cleaning the part of the plant above ground. I removed 2 small leaves today that looked like they might be in danger. I really need to get some new seeds germinated to start a new vine. Any ideas?

 

Caterpillars can be killed with a strain of Bacillus thuringiensis. I've treated three poincianas so far this week with it to kill poinciana caterpillars, though you can see it's just a part of my strategy against them. We had a plague here and no-one else seems to have come up with a solution. That's a link to my tree website, as I'm trying to get people to use organic solutions rather than chemicals.

By the way, there is no good chemical solution against caterpillars anyway! Bt is a naturally occurring bacteria, one strain of which kills caterpillars when they eat leaves that have been sprayed with it.
Edit: it's sometimes marketed as Dipel where I live, but you'll have to do your own research. It won't kill beneficial insects.

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Soapy water, if made with real soap, is a non-selective insecticide. It should work fine for sap-sucking insects. You can soak chopped up tomato leaves in it if you want it to have a lot more killing power.
Edit: bear in mind it will also kill beneficial insects.

 

I think Vitrsna is gardening to provide host plants for butterfly caterpillars. If so, it's not the caterpillars that are the pest, but other critters like mites & whitefly.

Vitrsna, I know you're a lot farther south than me, but I also grow Passiflora to host gulf fritillary butterfly caterpillars. They usually eat the whole thing. I wonder if your vine died, or was just completely eaten? Here's a pic from 9/4/2013:


Same day, starting to notice lots of caterpillars:


This is 9/11/2013:


After a couple more days, the vine was completely gone except the biggest stems.

I'm sorry, I don't have an answer to your last question, except to say that I probably would try to ID the pests & then try to find a solution, manual removal, or trying to locate predators to move to the affected plant. Maybe take cuttings of a healthy looking piece to start over. I would rather watch a plant die than use some kind of chemicals. That's not what most people would do or accept, but it's how I roll.

 

Thank you Brisbane...but purple is right my garden is designed to raise caterpillars to become butterflies or moths...most certainly not to kill them...look at my avatar. I love caterpillars. I know my post was a lot to read and maybe you focused on just certain parts of it. I do appreciate your participation though

 

Thank you purple...a agree 100% with you when you say I would rather watch a plant die than use some kind of chemicals. That's not what most people would do or accept, but it's how I roll. I would too. By working through i think i've answered my own question and feel my plan for the Dalechampia is solid...still, it is great to hear opinions from other people. And really you have answered my question which was "What would you do"? And your posts have helped me formulate a plan. Dalechampia is scheduled to be dug up this weekend, divided, and replanted in two separate locations. I did try a small cutting, but this is not the time of year when a cutting is going to be successful and it wasn't. And i have seeds that are fresh enough to be viable so i'll get some of those started.

The Passiflora didn't have a chance to get eaten down to nothing. The leaves(lots of them) turned yellow and fell off and the plant just up and died. I'm pretty sure the problem was nematodes or drainage. This happened twice in 4 years. Did your Passiflora die? or did it come back? It is so unusual for caterpillars to kill a food source even when they are starving.

Thanks so much for your participation

 

Yes, our Passiflora comes back, then gets eaten every year. It does sound like something happened at the roots of your plant for it to turn yellow & die so suddenly like that. Being eaten doesn't make anything turn yellow (unless it's the roots or main stem.) Even if it doesn't work, I also usually feel better by doing something proactive like dig & divide, than mere observation. And it does often work. Best vibes to your plan & plant!

 

Ah, you see? Although your Passiflora looks like it is eaten to nothing...it always comes back because those little caterpillars know not to destroy a food source (most of them anyway). It is amazing to me that so many people are afraid of these gentle creatures sitting on the bottom of the food chain. Is your Passiflora an incarnata? What they call Maypops? Here i grew Passiflora edulis which is such a big one for my little garden. At 30' it looked like it was just getting started and was about 4' deep. Really enormous, but this is the one that is known here. And the fruits are so delicious. Maybe one of these days, i'll try growing a different species (a smaller one) to see if the butterflies will use it as a host. Thank you for your good wishes. What is left of the Dalechampia is just bursting with life so i think it will successfully transplant. I was going to do that this past weekend but was unexpectedly taken away from the garden for a couple of days. Maybe this coming week. I'll let you know how it went when i'm done. Gee whiz purple, do you think we are the only 2 organic gardeners at the Stew? I sure hope not. Your participation was appreciated and really helpful to me

 

Yes, it's P. incarnata, maypops. This far north, it disappears while winter is cold. It's just starting to show up again in the past couple weeks. That makes it harder to get more going before it starts to get munched on, but cuttings do take root so easily. I'd love to get it going all around our fence in the back. It's welcome to cover the whole thing. I've never gotten a fruit from them to taste, it's all for the butterflies. Maybe one of these days...

I didn't say much here besides that I don't do much - LOL! But glad you found it helpful. I didn't realize that "lazy approach" was "allowed" until I bought a house about 20 yrs ago & started wondering about the grass. "Why is it everywhere, and how can I get rid of it & grow flowers?" "Can I afford all of the stuff I'm supposed to buy for the bugs & the roses, fertilizer, etc...?" Started reading about that & soon realized I didn't like any of the stuff about the chems & that they would thwart my efforts to provide a habitat for butterflies, and decided to just not use any - and to compost every bit of organic matter I can get my hands on.

I have no idea how many other gardeners use 'stew, or their thoughts on chems. I wouldn't make any assessments based on participation in this particular discussion.

Good luck with your transplant!

 

I've learned a lot by trying the "lazy approach" (which of course i only use for experimental purposes :-D. I think the most important lesson is (in an organic garden) if you leave things, like aphids, something will come and eat them. I read somewhere one lady beetle will eat 4000 (i assume that is plus or minus) aphids in a lifetime. One day i was squishing those chubby yellow aphids that appear on asclepias and during the process i glanced to find a lady beetle sitting on an adjacent leaf giving me the stink eye as if to say "hey, you are squishing my dinner". I excused myself to leave the rest of the eating to her. Also the lady beetle larvae will eat an amazing amount of aphids. It is important to know what lady beetle larvae look like (they come in a variety of designs) so you don't kill them thinking they are up to no good. Another lesson i've learned is that if you catch some predator early enough, mealie bugs for example and start squishing them before they multiply. They will just disappear and not come back to a plant they know is lethal to them.

I believe there are passifloras that are hardy enough to survive your zone 8 winters and remain green year around. Take a look at this:
http://www.passionflow.co.uk/downloads/Rusticite-Hardiness-Passiflora .pdf
I have seen photos of green passifloras covered with snow and/or ice.